An interesting conversation

Andrew:Jesus applauded Mary for being more interested in being with him, over Martha who was busy "doing", at the expense of relationship. Relevant?

Nat: yeah -- But the Lord said to her, 'My dear Martha, you are so upset over all these details! There is really only one thing worth being concerned about. Mary has discovered it--and I won't take it away from her.' [from luke 10] that "one thing worth being concerned about" is fellowship or relationship -- with both (a) the lord, and (b) others -- rather than the doing. good point. relevant? yes.

my point, i guess, is that the modern evangelical church has swung so far in the direction of focusing on the fellowship-with-god aspect -- or the "vertical" aspect of faith -- that the other-centeredness of the "horizontal" facets of faith have suffered -- "horizontal" referring to both our christian brothers and sisters as well as those outside the faith, those that are hard to love, those in need spiritually, physically, emotionally, relationally. [there could almost be a new facet called "centrifugal" faith: the missional, going-out part of following jesus.] for instance, there has been (too) much speaking of jesus as our "personal lord and savior" when he is so much more than that -- the redeemer of all creation, the bridegroom of the church [a community rather than a bunch of individuals]), etc.

individualistic "me-and-jesus" christianity is not all wrong, it is just woefully incomplete.

thanks for good dialogue. may it continue...perhaps you or i could throw something on the blog...???

Andrew:Yes, and I agree with you completely. My question is can we really have fellowship with {b} others if we don't first have fellowship with God, through Jesus, by the Spirit? Some may say we may find a connection to God when we help others. ("if you help the least of these you help me...")I believe that the love we experience from God overflows and is what we give to others. 1 Corinthians suggests we can do alot of good things but without love they aren't worth much. If you were to ask me what the church needs now it would not be "more focus on others", it would be a deeper and more authentic relationship with God, through Jesus, by the Spirit. If the gospel is being taught, good leadership will then teach that an authentic relationship with God will be indicated by the desire to help others. (galatians:..."all that matters is "faith expressing itself through love". )

Is it possible that helping others, the unchurched, the poor, the sick can become an idol? I am sure God is full of grace as we fumble through our motives, but I think you are right, it needs to be both. For me, Christ is first, I need His healing. Over time it is His strength in me that allows me to deeply love others, where there is a freedom from needing anything in return and a joy in bringing Him the glory.


In Him,

Andrew

Nat: a -- perhaps THE -- key word/concept in this whole following christ thing is transformation. the presence of christ is amazing, healing...transforming!

May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation.
[galatians 6:14-15]

if i were smarter, i'd love to see what greek words are used for "new creation". this concept seems multi-layered -- not just individual transformation, but that of a community, of culture, of the world...of all of creation.

Andrew: Wow! yes... I agree. ( actually I like the rest of that verse..."all that matters is "faith expressing itself through love". The bible study we are doing ends with that same conclusion. interestingly, the final study is about service to others, as the ultimate expression of faith and evidence of a life transformed by the the Spirit.

Proverbs 19:17He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD, and he will reward him for what he has done.

Matthew 19:21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Matthew 26:11The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me.